By Paul Dion, STL
This is a question that does not come up too often because so many Christians live with their firm beliefs tightly contained secretly in their hearts. It is a topic that does not come up at cocktail parties for sure, and, truth be told, it is not even discussed at Baptisms and weddings.
For several years I taught a theology course which is traditionally called, “Christology”. That is the study of the mystery of Jesus Christ.
I never took a poll, but in every class I observed that there were two strong factions. One, that Jesus was God and therefore was not like us at all. The other, that Jesus was human, felt that He was a special “missionary” from God and that His wonderful life allows those of us who “believe” that He was the Son of God.
Most times, the first position in the class was stronger than the second. Where do you stand? What is the Doctrinal position of the Church?
Think about it and send me your answer with some reasoning comments and I will send the summary of your answers and the Doctrinal position of the Catholic Church.
Post your thoughts below. I look forward to hearing what they are.
Yes Jesus is God and God is Jesus. This is unanimous in the family when I read out your question. If we believe in the Trinity, then the answer is obvious. Jesus is the incarnate son of the Trinity. Many verses in the bible attested to this. Like Jesus said "the father is in me and I am in him" and we know that Jesus does not lie. Marian doctrine is the Church position on this issue. Marian doctrine was more to prove that Jesus is God than Mary is the mother of God. From this doctrine, we proof that Jesus is God from the minute He was conceived. Elizabeth's greeting to Mary as "the mother of my Lord" when Mary visited her after Angel Gabriel’s visit
ReplyDeleteThis mystery is one of the greatest questions of most non-Catholics. Through strong faith I truly believe that Jesus is a part of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Part of the mystery to me consists in the crucifixion when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me? This appears out of sync if he is really one being in God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. Any light that can be shed on this inconsistency would be appreciated.
ReplyDeleteOne need only to look at your verb choice to know where you stand. We believe in One God. "And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons , nor dividing the Substance." If Jesus were not God; that Word which from the beginning was, and was with, and Was, then he would not be enough to pay our tab. Were He not human, "tempted in every way as we are, but
ReplyDeletewithout sin" (And not "without sin" because of his Godhead but because of His faithfulness e.g. "It is written..." and "Thy will, not mine...") and faithful "unto death, even death on a cross" and that Death full of pain and fear "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" our hope to emulate Him would be wholly vain and He would be no savior for us, no "firstborn from the dead" No everlasting High Priest. no Brother by whom and with whom and in whom we are made heirs of God. "Taste and touch and vision to discern thee fail; faith that comes by hearing pierces through the veil. I believe what e'er the Son Of God hath told; what the Truth hath spoken, that for truth I hold. Borrow from the best!
No reasoning Paul. I have always Felt that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit (Angels ) were all the same. I know the bible says that who ever believe in me Jesus, will find heaven. and born in a Baptist church Jesus was big news...but I have always prayed to God and have always believed he would take care of me......I felt talking with him and talking with Jesus was one and the same .... still do.
ReplyDeleteThis mystery is one of the greatest questions of most non-Catholics. Through strong faith I truly believe that Jesus is a part of the Trinity (Father,Son, and Holy Spirit). Part of the mystery to me consists in the crucifixion when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me? This appears out of sync if he is really one being in God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. Any light that can be shed on this inconsistency would be appreciated.
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE BY PAUL DION, STL to Donald Averill:
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic doctrine of Christ's existence as true God and true Man took a long time to gel. Almost 4 centuries, in fact. It was always out there, but the mystery is so deep that it takes a lot of prayer and excogitating before it can be expressed.
One of the strongest witnesses to the divinity of Jesus is the gospel of St. John. John wanted to impress the divinity of Jesus upon his audience, all the while inserting some very human traits in Jesus along the way.
The cry for help from the Cross is not the only instance where we see Jesus in full supplication. We see Him asking for forgiveness for His tormentors; we see Him agonizing in the garden; as you point out, we see Him asking not to be abandoned.
Along the way, we also see Him promising eternal salvation to the thief on the cross; we see Him telling the crying women of Jerusalem that it is their children from whom they should be crying; we see Him telling Pilate that Pilate would have no power over Him were it not given from Heaven.
Finally, why do we doubt His divinity because we hear Him shouting out for succor to His Father? Do we not do the same? Is it so strange that a plaint for help could be a sign of closeness, not estrangement? Especially from one who taught us that to pray meant to reach out to the God that we can call, "Abba?"
The tradition that tells us that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit has to mean something to us when we consider His divinity. Would the Divine Father and the Divine Spirit collaborate for anything less?
So Jesus continues to participate in the Trinity bY being engendered through a human being, sharing two natures equally, one human and one divine. Just as He, the Father and the Holy Spirit share one sigle divine nature while remaing three distinct but equal persons.
Finally, in your case, I hear you say up front that you believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity. The only source for that faith is the Godhead Himself. That is the gift that lives in you and makes you relate to God.
I will leave you now. I hope that The Spirit has helped you on this wonderful feast of Pentecost. You will particpate in the response that I send to the others who shared their faith about this topic.
Peace and joy.
MY REFLECTION ON THE BURNING QUESTION:
ReplyDeleteCATECHISM
The Church confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother.
At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.
Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.
Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God's Son.
Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The Incarnation is therefore the mystery of the wonderful union of the divine and human natures in the one person of the Word.
BIBLE
I like the first chapter of St. John’s gospel. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through Him, and without Him, nothing came to be. What came to be through Him was life and this life was the light of the human race.” (John: 1, 1 ss.)
The tradition expressed in St. Luke’s gospel that tells us that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit has to mean something to us when we consider His divinity. Would the Divine Father and the Divine Spirit collaborate for anything less? So Jesus continues to participate in the Trinity being engendered through a human being, sharing two natures equally, one human and one divine, just as He, the Father and the Holy Spirit share one single divine nature while remaining three distinct but equal persons.
I have answered all of you personally. Not with an “answer” but with a reaction to your participation in the sharing of your faith. You have your personal gift of Faith with which you relate to God through Jesus. This is what it means to “know” God. We live the answer to His love in our entire being as we go through life. This is what it means to participate in the mystery of salvation. We live in Him and He in us.
Is Jesus and God the Same?
ReplyDeleteJesus is "the Word made flesh". He is God and the Bible states clearly that Jesus is God. see John chapter 1.
I guess if people do not read their Bibles and the Catechism of the Catholic Church they will not know this fact.
In his human form, Jesus is like us in everything except sin. However, He is still God. In some ways it is difficult to explain this wonderous reality. For me it is real and true and I am grateful that God loves us so much that He gave of Himself to free us from sin and death.
Dear Julie,
ReplyDeleteThank you for participating in the Parish World "Burning Question" give and take. Visit us every week. We always have a moral, doctrinal or scriptural challenge for our readers.
Your final comment about people who read the Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church should be aware of this fact is correct, but not always objectively true. Some readers of those texts never really respond to the Grace of Faith that brings the truth of these facts to the depths of their souls. Let us stay united in the prayer that all who hear the Word believe it and live by it by following it in the person of Jesus Christ.
God bless you with peace and joy.
I believe Jesus was God and Man at the same time. His human-ness allowed Him the expeirence to suffer,love, hurt,feel and grasp what a human being goes thruogh. His God/Divinity allows Him to comprehend these emotions in ways we cannot yet comprehend nor will ever. He suffered and was very aware of the purpose of suffering and quite frankly the rewards of suffering. Jesus' capacity of,for and to love again is beyond anything we could even try to concieve. Yes, Jesus is from God. God is from Jesus and The Trinity makes One.
ReplyDeleteJanet B.
Jesus is both God and human. He was born to a flesh which signify his humanity, just like all of us. But unlike all of us, he is born from an immaculate conception, which signifies that he is not like us but from God. The answer therefore of the question, if Jesus and God is the same? Yes, for they are one, it goes back to the Catholic doctrine "One God, Three Persona". The power of God is immeasurable, that what appears to be a mystery to us, is not to him, the Almighty.
ReplyDeleteGod is Jesus. And Jesus is God.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the biggest questions,was Jesus God.While Jesus was getting baptised,the voice from heaven said:"this is my dearly loved son,who brings me great joy" was Christ talking to Himself ? before His arrest, He was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane : was God praying to Himself ?" My Father.if it is possible,let this cup of sufferingbe taken away from me." Jesus is calling out to the father. I wander if it was not for Nicean council's decision, would we have the trinity. I find this very hard to comprehend, and I am not the only one, many christians do have a problem with this.I wander why religions like Christadelphians, JW say that Jesus is only the son of God.
ReplyDeleteHe suffered and was very aware of the purpose of suffering and quite frankly the rewards of suffering. Jesus' capacity of,for and to love again is beyond anything we could even try to concieve. Yes, Jesus is from God. God is from Jesus and The Trinity makes One.
ReplyDeleteLord =Father Creator, Jesus = Son of Mary//David`s lineage, Christ = Holy Ghost, a simple illustration
ReplyDeleteof the Most Holy Trinity. The Reality of our Lord
Jesus Christ being Alive, is the Reality of the
Most Holy and Blessed Eucharist. May we always
Truthfully acknowledge the Fact of the Life we
take with in ourselves !! ChaBaD !! Shalom !!