Thursday

Can we get sick drinking from a common cup at Communion?


By Paul Dion, STL

There is a rather intense department of health campaign taking place to bring awareness to the American people about the possibility of a very virulent epidemic of bird flu in North America.

During a short presentation about the possibility of this epidemic becoming a reality, the subject of the Priests and Altar Ministers who distribute communion arose.

This statement was put on the table during the discussion following the presentation.
“YOU CAN’T PASS GERMS THROUGH THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST”

The exchange among members of the audience swirled around the process of personal purification that people who handle the Sacred Species of Body and Blood of Christ for Communion should practice before distributing communion.

I have to solicit an answer to this very daring and interesting statement.

What is your reaction to the statement? Can parishioners who drink from the chalice containing the consecrated wine get sick? Can parishioners who get germs on the host from the unwashed hands of either the priest or an Extraordinary Minister get sick? What about germs that come to us after they have come to rest on the host or inside the chalice after a cough? I couldn't resist asking this. After all, it is flu-shot season, right?

Share your thoughts today. Post a comment below.

12 comments:

  1. Anonymous4:52 PM

    Our faith tells us the germs and bacteria that affects those who administer the body and blood of our Lord cannot possibly be shared with others due to the protective forces that surrounds those sacred species. I personally believe that the individual strength of our faith will determine if we were to become sick if we were to receive an "affected" species. However, we must use our common sense. If the health department offers any assistance to circumvent the exchange of this flu virus, then we must listen wholeheartedly. The health department has the power to "close the doors" of an institution which of course includes our church. Our church is subject to the laws and provisions of Riverside county. As a church, if we do not comply with those laws and provisions we as a church will suffer the consequences.
    The health department can care less of our belief in Christ. The health department must look after all people whether those people have religious beliefs or not.
    If an epidemic occurs, let's use our common sense and comply with the directions that we are sure to receive from the authorities within our society.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous10:11 AM

    "If a fly should land (sic) in the cup prior to consecration it shall be removed and placed on the corporal. If it recovers and flies away let it go, if not dispose as with any refuse. Should the same happen after consecration the fly is to be reverently removed and placed upon the paten, if it recovers and flies away let it go genuflecting as it passes, if it does not recover dispose in the piscina." (Apocryphal rubric received from Townshend Ruddick a very high church Anglo-Catholic.) I do not accept that the Body and Blood of Christ can communicate anything bur the best of health spiritual, mental, and physical. The lips and hands of sinners, regardless of their state of grace, may well so do; we should take all appropriate steps to prevent such propagation. If we follow the guidelines of the
    Universal precautions set forth for health care and food workers we should avoid most danger.

    Dennis

    ReplyDelete
  3. Peggy O'Donnell, Pastoral Associate11:32 PM

    The early Christians met in their homes or catecombs. They shared Eucharist under every possible condition. Missionaries have shared Mass and Eucharist for centuries, in every conceivable circumstance. Was anyone ever in question about germs? Our Faith must precede our logic and believe in the perfection of our Lord and Savior - Who probably will offer more to our cure than we will to spread of disease.
    We must pray for Faith. AS we allow our faith to be erroded by rhetoric of government agencies closing doors, we are giving away the power of our convictions to those of unbelief. And one day we will ask, 'how did this happen?' when our church doors are closed.
    Peggy

    ReplyDelete
  4. a few comments up they said:

    "If an epidemic occurs, let's use our common sense and comply with the directions that we are sure to receive from the authorities within our society."

    but before that they said:

    "Our faith tells us the germs and bacteria that affects those who administer the body and blood of our Lord cannot possibly be shared with others due to the protective forces that surrounds those sacred species."

    So what do we follow? Our faith or common sense? The Health Department of Riverside county, or the Church that gives us Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity? Nothing but good comes from his body and flows from his blood. Our senses should lead our faith and spirit, but instead our spirit and faith should enhance our senses.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Jerhomie9:12 AM

    a few comments up they said:

    "If an epidemic occurs, let's use our common sense and comply with the directions that we are sure to receive from the authorities within our society."

    but before that they said:

    "Our faith tells us the germs and bacteria that affects those who administer the body and blood of our Lord cannot possibly be shared with others due to the protective forces that surrounds those sacred species."

    So what do we follow? Our faith or common sense? The Health Department of Riverside county, or the Church that gives us Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity? Nothing but good comes from his body and flows from his blood. Our senses should lead our faith and spirit, but instead our spirit and faith should enhance our senses.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Peggy O'Donnell, Pastoral Associate9:14 AM

    The early Christians met in their homes or catecombs. They shared Eucharist under every possible condition. Missionaries have shared Mass and Eucharist for centuries, in every conceivable circumstance. Was anyone ever in question about germs? Our Faith must precede our logic and believe in the perfection of our Lord and Savior - Who probably will offer more to our cure than we will to spread of disease.
    We must pray for Faith. AS we allow our faith to be erroded by rhetoric of government agencies closing doors, we are giving away the power of our convictions to those of unbelief. And one day we will ask, 'how did this happen?' when our church doors are closed.
    Peggy

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hello, All:
    Thank you for chiming in to the "BURNING QUESTION". This is a question that has a lot of practical ramifications.
    We all accept that we can catch the germns from the breath of the minister. You and I disagree about what would happen if salmonella or e-boli or anthrax would happen to be residing on the consecrated host in the cup after consecration. My position is clearly stated at this link: http://nocryingatmyfuneral.blogspot.com/

    By the way, I generally take communion under both species because I have the same personal faith and trust that you all do.
    Thanks for your thoughts and your feelings.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Paul Dion, STL1:13 PM

    PARISHWORLD RECAP
    By Paul Dion, STL

    “Our faith tells us the germs and bacteria that affects those who administer the body and blood of our Lord cannot possibly be shared with others due to the protective forces that surrounds those sacred species.”

    I do not accept that the Body and Blood of Christ can communicate anything bur the best of health - spiritual, mental, and physical. The lips and hands of sinners, regardless of their state of grace, may well so do; we should take all appropriate steps to prevent such propagation.

    I have to offer an answer and comment to these very daring and interesting statements. They came about because of a meeting in which the leader of the health ministry was asking for awareness with regards the possibility of an epidemic of the bird flu. She was making a point that the church would institute some training for Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist to minimize the danger of passing on the contagion.

    It didn’t take long before a discussion ensued about the possibility of parishioners being contaminated by coming in contact with the chicken flu germs that might be on the consecrated host and on the chalice containing the consecrated wine.

    The position above was staunchly expostulated as a matter of Dogma and was never really refuted. The discussion came to an end only when the pastor mentioned that the practices that would be followed in the parish would be mandated by the bishop’s office and that we would follow them in our parish.

    Before I go too far down this road, I have to say that I may have to use some words that are not really common, every day words. I will do my best to keep everything within the bounds of familiar vocabulary.

    The Eucharist

    Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the consecrated host and the consecrated wine. This Real Presence is called the Sacramental Presence. It takes place at the moment of consecration when the priest pronounces the words of the Institution of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist: “This is my Body”, followed by: “This is my Blood, the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant which will be given up for you. Do this in memory of me.”

    This is the moment when a miraculous and mysterious conversion called Transubstantiation takes place. This conversion has the effect of changing the bread and the wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. This action is dogmatically defined by the Church.

    This does not mean that the bread is the body and the wine is the blood. By Church Dogma we believe that Jesus Christ is sacramentally present in body and blood in each “species”, the bread and the wine. Both, the bread and the wine are converted, from their substance to the substance of the body and blood of Jesus Christ. It is therefore doctrinally correct to say that the bread and the wine are the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

    Question: Why does the bread keep its bread flavor? Ditto for the wine?

    The conversion from bread and wine to the body and blood of Jesus Christ changes the substance of the two species, bread and wine, but doesn’t take away their qualities - nor their properties of bread and wine. They retain all the appearances, feel, taste, ingredients and yes, alcoholic and sugar content too of bread and wine. They retain the substance of the Real Presence for as long as they retain their pure and true qualities of bread and wine. When they lose their identity as true bread and wine as good, edible food, they also lose the Divine Substance that they had before their natural degeneration.

    So what about germs?

    Germs, bacteria, viruses, dust, mist, poison, etc. are all substances that can join themselves to the qualities and properties of the bread and wine that have now become substantially body and blood of Jesus Christ. These beings do not change their nature when they come in contact with the sacred, sacramental substance.

    These beings can affect us when they enter our bodies, no matter what platform they use as a springboard to get to us. If our immune system is not strong enough to fend them off, we get ill. It is not because they use the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ as a means to get to us that we will be protected against the effects of their attack.

    This is easy to understand when we believe in the creation action of God Himself. He is the creator of nature and He does not tamper with the forces of nature that He Himself created.

    It is easy to understand that drinking too much of the Sacred Blood from the chalice will have the same effect as that of non-transubstantiated wine. It will inebriate the person who drinks too much of it. There is in fact a law that allows alcoholic priests to get permission from the Vatican to use pure grape juice in the celebration of the Holy Mass. This protects them from the effects of alcohol on them.

    The mystery of the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ is a sacramental one. Just as Jesus, true God and true man, was fully susceptible to illness and injury, so are we when we come in contact with germs transferred to us from His glorified presence in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    Historic examples of Church conduct about contagious disease and Communion

    Bishop Acts to Keep the Flu From the Flock [NYT] November 28, 2004
    Bishop Kenneth Angell of Vermont is modifying his services to help stop the spread of this year's deadly flu virus: The Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington is the only one in the country that has formally asked priests to refrain from using the communion chalice and parishioners to avoid the usual handshake, hug or kiss when they make the sign of peace during Mass until the end of flu season, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops says.

    Other dioceses are taking precautionary measures, like encouraging hand-washing, requesting that sick people refrain from taking communion and encouraging those uncomfortable with shaking hands not to do so, a spokesman for the conference said.

    During the SARS epidemic Canadian Catholic churches made similar modifications to Easter services. [CBC]

    April 17, 2003 Toronto, Ontario
    The news spread, however, and is raising concerns. The Archdiocese of Toronto ordered all of its churches to change customary Holy Communion practices this Easter because of the outbreak among the Catholic group. Delivering Communion from the cup will be suspended, as will kissing the Crucifix on Good Friday and shaking hands for the sign of peace.

    -----------------------------------August, 2003 My dear People of God,

    Due to the SARS epidemic, precautions must be taken to contain its spread. We will appreciate if you can kindly follow the following instructions:

    1. If you are suspected of the illness, or have been in contact with people infected with this problem, please refrain from attending Mass on Sundays. 2. Holy Communion is to be received on your palm and not on the tongue.

    These instructions are to be observed as long as we are faced with this epidemic. Let’s pray that this epidemic will be contained soon. Let’s take all the necessary precautions and trust in the Lord.

    Yours devotedly in Christ, Archbishop Nicholas Chia

    CONCLUSION

    It is not a matter of faith and our Catholic doctrine that you can’t pass germs through the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament of Holy Communion.

    If you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am wrong, I will willingly change my position in public just to make you so happy that you will not have any temptation to cry at my funeral.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous11:57 PM

    I need to address the statement made by Paul Dion:


    I answer: We are told in the Gospel to not lean on our own understanding but on ever word of God and traditions left for Christ church. God also said his sheep knows his voice. This argument of the true present is not new and the statements made about passing germs through the Body and Blood has reared its ugly head once again. It is very hard for me to even make such a statement about Our Holy Lord and savior. This statement is a statement use by the protestants not the Catholic, and even they have a problem with it today “In reference to this particular cup, then, Matthew and Mark may be understood as saying that each of the apostles had a cup before him on the table, or at least that there were more cups than one. But now, when Christ gives a new, special drink of his blood, he commands them all to drink out of this single cup. Thus, in offering it and with a special gesture, Christ takes his own cup and lets them all drink of it, in distinction from all the other ordinary cups on the table, in order that they might better observe that it was a special drink in distinction from the other draughts which had been given them during the meal.” (Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, 1528, AE 37:11) This was a question of the Minister to the congregation as they receive the wine in separate cups because they fear the germs if any on the challis.
    …… “But are we being completely faithful to His command to “Drink of it, all of you,” if we disregard “it” (the cup) in favor of something else?”... “However, we do know that Jesus says, “Drink of it, all of you” and that “it” refers to the one Cup/Chalice which “all” were to drink from. Here our Lord speaks of both what we are to do (“Drink”) and how we are to receive it (from the Cup). Obviously, and again, the wine being joined to the Word is what makes the Sacrament the Sacrament. We don’t take into our bodies the metal from the chalice after all, but the wine it contains. But that doesn’t render the Chalice unimportant. Moreover, it is simply untenable to argue that the Cup/Chalice is a
    Matter of mere “preference” or is necessarily and completely unessential when it is clearly spoken of by Christ as a part of His express command, in addition to His action concerning it.” (Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, 1528, AE 37:11)

    The concerns of germs pass through the precious Body and Blood have never seriously risen in the Catholic Church ever since the Eucharist was instated, until the last century or so. Why would they, when Christ calls us to come to him for healing and to be made holy. The contradictory statement that germ, dust mite, poison or disease could connect itself through the body or blood of our Savior and Lord is saying that the Lord tells us to come to a cup of sickness or even certain death. If we believe the word of God and our faith then we know that this is not possible. The Catechism states that “The Holy Eucharist is the paschal banquet in as much as Christ sacramentally makes present his Passover and gives us his Body and Blood, offered as food and drink, uniting us to himself and to one another in his sacrifice”. (287. CCC.1382-1384, 1391-1396). If hygiene was ever a serious concern it would have been during periods such as the bubonic plague in late 16th century Europe. Pastor Philip Nicolai wrote the text and tune of “Wake, Awake, For Night is Flying,” to comfort his parishioners as they witnessed death on a daily basis due to that plague. The story is told about how he wrote it as he daily watched the unending funeral processions out of the window in his study. Here were a people who desperately needed comfort as well as protection from the spread of disease. So where did they turn in such a time of need? They turn to Holy Communion to find strength, peace and comfort in Christ and His precious promises as to what it gives and does. Yet, we don’t hear accounts of faithful Christians in such situations turning from the Sacrament out of fear, and this when the Holy Supper was most likely offered at least weekly everywhere. You would have expected them to have the same fear we have now and especially declare a waiting period on receiving the Sacrament from the chalice, if they dared receive at all. But they did not. If they did not fear then when people were dropping like flies and coffins were stacked sky high because they die faster then the priest could burring them. Why they were not afraid to drink form the same cup because they knew it was God. Saint Ignatius of Antioch hit the nail on the head when he said “In the Eucharist, we “break the one bread that provides the medicine of immortality, the antidote for death and the food that makes us live forever in Jesus Christ.”


    When the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, why do they still look and taste like bread and wine?

    In the celebration of the Eucharist, the glorified Christ becomes present under the appearances of bread and wine in a way that is unique, a way that is uniquely suited to the Eucharist. In the Church's traditional theological language, in the act of consecration during the Eucharist the "substance" of the bread and wine is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit into the "substance" of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. At the same time, the "accidents" or appearances of bread and wine remain. "Substance" and "accident" are here used as philosophical terms that have been adapted by great medieval theologians such as St. Thomas Aquinas in their efforts to understand and explain the faith. Such terms are used to convey the fact that what appears to be bread and wine in every way (at the level of "accidents" or physical attributes - that is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured) in fact is now the Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of "substance" or deepest reality). This change at the level of substance from bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is called "transubstantiation." According to Catholic faith, we can speak of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because this transubstantiation has occurred (cf. Catechism, no. 1376).
    This is a great mystery of our faith—we can only know it from Christ's teaching given us in the Scriptures and in the Tradition of the Church. Every other change that occurs in the world involves a change in accidents or characteristics. Sometimes the accidents change while the substance remains the same. For example, when a child reaches adulthood, the characteristics of the human person change in many ways, but the adult remains the same person—the same substance. At other times, the substance and the accidents both change. For example, when a person eats an apple, the apple is incorporated into the body of that person—is changed into the body of that person. When this change of substance occurs, however, the accidents or characteristics of the apple do not remain. As the apple is changed into the body of the person, it takes on the accidents or characteristics of the body of that person. Christ's presence in the Eucharist is unique in that, even though the consecrated bread and wine truly are in substance the Body and Blood of Christ, they have none of the accidents or characteristics of a human body, but only those of bread and wine.

    Answer by the Summa:
    Does the bread cease to be bread and the wine cease to be wine?

    Yes. In order for the whole Christ to be present—body, blood, soul, and divinity—the bread and wine cannot remain, but must give way so that his glorified Body and Blood may be present. Thus in the Eucharist the bread ceases to be bread in substance, and becomes the Body of Christ, while the wine ceases to be wine in substance, and becomes the Blood of Christ. As St. Thomas Aquinas observed, Christ is not quoted as saying, "This bread is my body," but "This is my body" (Summa Theologiae, III q. 78, a. 5).
    As pertain to getting drunk off the blood or that Priest are given special permission to use foreign matter such as grape juice the Vatican is unchanged on this, the catechism, 1412 says, “The essential elements are wheat bread and grape wine.” There is no substitution allow by the Vatican.”
    If Christ asks us to workshop him alone then whey would anyone think that a ministers germ or another persons germs as well as any other element including antax etc. could be attach to the body and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? So what then is being said? Our Lord calls us to a meal of Life or death?
    Quit the contrary Jesus comes to us in the Eucharist so that you will live for ever. Holy Communion is not ordinary food. It is the bread of eternal life. It is something more precious that gold or silver. It is worth more than anything you can imagine. For this sacred bread is the body and blood of Jesus. And Jesus promises that if you eat his flesh and drink his blood, you will have life in you and you will live for ever.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Anonymous6:56 AM

    Mary Kay Lewis has left a new comment on your post "Can we get sick drinking from a common cup at Communion?":

    I need to address the statement made by Paul Dion:


    I answer: We are told in the Gospel to not lean on our own understanding but on ever word of God and traditions left for Christ church. God also said his sheep knows his voice. This argument of the true present is not new and the statements made about passing germs through the Body and Blood has reared its ugly head once again. It is very hard for me to even make such a statement about Our Holy Lord and savior. This statement is a statement use by the protestants not the Catholic, and even they have a problem with it today “In reference to this particular cup, then, Matthew and Mark may be understood as saying that each of the apostles had a cup before him on the table, or at least that there were more cups than one. But now, when Christ gives a new, special drink of his blood, he commands them all to drink out of this single cup. Thus, in offering it and with a special gesture, Christ takes his own cup and lets them all drink of it, in distinction from all the other ordinary cups on the table, in order that they might better observe that it was a special drink in distinction from the other draughts which had been given them during the meal.” (Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, 1528, AE 37:11) This was a question of the Minister to the congregation as they receive the wine in separate cups because they fear the germs if any on the challis.
    …… “But are we being completely faithful to His command to “Drink of it, all of you,” if we disregard “it” (the cup) in favor of something else?”... “However, we do know that Jesus says, “Drink of it, all of you” and that “it” refers to the one Cup/Chalice which “all” were to drink from. Here our Lord speaks of both what we are to do (“Drink”) and how we are to receive it (from the Cup). Obviously, and again, the wine being joined to the Word is what makes the Sacrament the Sacrament. We don’t take into our bodies the metal from the chalice after all, but the wine it contains. But that doesn’t render the Chalice unimportant. Moreover, it is simply untenable to argue that the Cup/Chalice is a
    Matter of mere “preference” or is necessarily and completely unessential when it is clearly spoken of by Christ as a part of His express command, in addition to His action concerning it.” (Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, 1528, AE 37:11)

    The concerns of germs pass through the precious Body and Blood have never seriously risen in the Catholic Church ever since the Eucharist was instated, until the last century or so. Why would they, when Christ calls us to come to him for healing and to be made holy. The contradictory statement that germ, dust mite, poison or disease could connect itself through the body or blood of our Savior and Lord is saying that the Lord tells us to come to a cup of sickness or even certain death. If we believe the word of God and our faith then we know that this is not possible. The Catechism states that “The Holy Eucharist is the paschal banquet in as much as Christ sacramentally makes present his Passover and gives us his Body and Blood, offered as food and drink, uniting us to himself and to one another in his sacrifice”. (287. CCC.1382-1384, 1391-1396). If hygiene was ever a serious concern it would have been during periods such as the bubonic plague in late 16th century Europe. Pastor Philip Nicolai wrote the text and tune of “Wake, Awake, For Night is Flying,” to comfort his parishioners as they witnessed death on a daily basis due to that plague. The story is told about how he wrote it as he daily watched the unending funeral processions out of the window in his study. Here were a people who desperately needed comfort as well as protection from the spread of disease. So where did they turn in such a time of need? They turn to Holy Communion to find strength, peace and comfort in Christ and His precious promises as to what it gives and does. Yet, we don’t hear accounts of faithful Christians in such situations turning from the Sacrament out of fear, and this when the Holy Supper was most likely offered at least weekly everywhere. You would have expected them to have the same fear we have now and especially declare a waiting period on receiving the Sacrament from the chalice, if they dared receive at all. But they did not. If they did not fear then when people were dropping like flies and coffins were stacked sky high because they die faster then the priest could burring them. Why they were not afraid to drink form the same cup because they knew it was God. Saint Ignatius of Antioch hit the nail on the head when he said “In the Eucharist, we “break the one bread that provides the medicine of immortality, the antidote for death and the food that makes us live forever in Jesus Christ.”


    When the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, why do they still look and taste like bread and wine?

    In the celebration of the Eucharist, the glorified Christ becomes present under the appearances of bread and wine in a way that is unique, a way that is uniquely suited to the Eucharist. In the Church's traditional theological language, in the act of consecration during the Eucharist the "substance" of the bread and wine is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit into the "substance" of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. At the same time, the "accidents" or appearances of bread and wine remain. "Substance" and "accident" are here used as philosophical terms that have been adapted by great medieval theologians such as St. Thomas Aquinas in their efforts to understand and explain the faith. Such terms are used to convey the fact that what appears to be bread and wine in every way (at the level of "accidents" or physical attributes - that is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured) in fact is now the Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of "substance" or deepest reality). This change at the level of substance from bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is called "transubstantiation." According to Catholic faith, we can speak of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because this transubstantiation has occurred (cf. Catechism, no. 1376).
    This is a great mystery of our faith—we can only know it from Christ's teaching given us in the Scriptures and in the Tradition of the Church. Every other change that occurs in the world involves a change in accidents or characteristics. Sometimes the accidents change while the substance remains the same. For example, when a child reaches adulthood, the characteristics of the human person change in many ways, but the adult remains the same person—the same substance. At other times, the substance and the accidents both change. For example, when a person eats an apple, the apple is incorporated into the body of that person—is changed into the body of that person. When this change of substance occurs, however, the accidents or characteristics of the apple do not remain. As the apple is changed into the body of the person, it takes on the accidents or characteristics of the body of that person. Christ's presence in the Eucharist is unique in that, even though the consecrated bread and wine truly are in substance the Body and Blood of Christ, they have none of the accidents or characteristics of a human body, but only those of bread and wine.

    Answer by the Summa:
    Does the bread cease to be bread and the wine cease to be wine?

    Yes. In order for the whole Christ to be present—body, blood, soul, and divinity—the bread and wine cannot remain, but must give way so that his glorified Body and Blood may be present. Thus in the Eucharist the bread ceases to be bread in substance, and becomes the Body of Christ, while the wine ceases to be wine in substance, and becomes the Blood of Christ. As St. Thomas Aquinas observed, Christ is not quoted as saying, "This bread is my body," but "This is my body" (Summa Theologiae, III q. 78, a. 5).
    As pertain to getting drunk off the blood or that Priest are given special permission to use foreign matter such as grape juice the Vatican is unchanged on this, the catechism, 1412 says, “The essential elements are wheat bread and grape wine.” There is no substitution allow by the Vatican.”
    If Christ asks us to workshop him alone then whey would anyone think that a ministers germ or another persons germs as well as any other element including antax etc. could be attach to the body and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? So what then is being said? Our Lord calls us to a meal of Life or death?
    Quit the contrary Jesus comes to us in the Eucharist so that you will live for ever. Holy Communion is not ordinary food. It is the bread of eternal life. It is something more precious that gold or silver. It is worth more than anything you can imagine. For this sacred bread is the body and blood of Jesus. And Jesus promises that if you eat his flesh and drink his blood, you will have life in you and you will live for ever.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Original statement pronounced in public and recorded in writing:

    "It is a matter of my faith and our doctrine that you can’t pass germs through the body and blood of Christ."

    Conclusion written by Paul Dion in an email to the person who is quoted above:

    "It is not a matter of faith and our Catholic doctrine that you can’t pass germs through the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament of Holy Communion."

    Final comment:

    That it is a matter of your faith, "my faith" is something between a private individual and God. That it is a matter of "our doctrine" is an inaccurate statement. Let me draw your attention to the fact that I never even insinuated that it is wrong for any private individual to believe that "you can't pass germs through the body and blood of Christ." All I have ever said is that the statement itself is not a dogma of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, a careful reading of my objection to the original statement will show that I did not question the theology of the "Real Presence" nor of "Transubstantiation". Since you have not shown any infallible statements from Popes or Ecumenical councils to the contrary, it is still logical to believe that germs can be passed through the accidents of the "species" of Holy Communion, the bread and the wine. I can say this because it has been accepted by the Church that these "accidents" have an independent existance apart from the substance of the body and blood of Christ. I stand by my final statement written above.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous5:20 PM

    Dear Folk!
    How you have met Christmas?
    You have brought a smile to my face all year long. ... I never would have met such a fun, interesting group of people.
    Mark Oem

    ReplyDelete